GLENN: Stu was just telling me here that you have an interview with me and Chris Matthews. What have you found?

STU: This is audio from a long time ago. I believe it was when The Real America came out. And it struck me the other day because, did you see his comments, Sarah Palin’s comments about God leading her life?

GLENN: Hang on just a second.

STU: I know. Okay, did I see his comments on her comments — got it — about God leading her life?

STU: Right.

GLENN: Yes. I didn’t see those comments.

STU: She said — she was talking, someone asked her, of course, about is she going to run in 2012 and she said basically, “Okay, God, if there’s an open door for me somewhere, this is what I always pray, I’m just like, just don’t let me miss the open door and if there is an open door in 2012 or four years later and it’s something good for my family, my state, my nation and an opportunity for me, then I’ll plow through that door.” That’s what she said. That’s her quote.

GLENN: He is against that, isn’t he?

STU: Of course that is — all she’s saying is I will get some guidance. Wow.

GLENN: Can I tell you something? This is — and I’m going to do an hour — in Hour Number 3 today we’re going to talk about this new atheism movement, you know, this anti-God movement that is starting to spring out all across the country where the extreme uber anti-God people are just going gangbusters now. And let me tell you something. Part of that monologue is I believe in the secret, you know, that Oprah Winfrey book she pushed? I believe in the secret, I believe in the power of the mind. My book even has “I Am” in it. What you think, you will create. You create your own storms, you create your own opportunities, et cetera, et cetera. But it is hand in hand with God. It’s not like — you know, you are using his power and he is assisting you and you’ve got to be able, to be able to be the fullest you, you’ve got to be in line with him. And the reason — it’s so funny that you would bring this up today because I was thinking last night, I was in bed and I was reading and I was thinking and I thought, you know, there is this movement to give people the power, like The Secret, give people the power but disconnect from God. And I’ll bet you that Chris Matthews says, yeah, you’ve got to follow your gut, you’ve got to do that. But then if somebody says, you know what, I just want to be in line with God’s will, that all of a sudden is crazy talk. All of a sudden you’re a religious zealot, you’re a crazy man.

STU: Yeah, and that’s pretty much what he did. Listen to what he says. “Is this commentary about theocracy and going to God for approval?

GLENN: Oh, my gosh.

STU: “We’ve been through that with President Bush who said he didn’t take advice from his father, he got it from another father and we’ve been this sort of Joan of Arc period to go get another —

GLENN: Oh, my gosh.

STU: Unbelievable. “Are we going to get another piece of…”

GLENN: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Do you have the audiotape of him? Because I remember, wasn’t Chris Matthews — didn’t Chris Matthews beat my face into the sidewalk?

STU: Yes.

GLENN: I remember this being really bizarre because I said, you know, you need — I mentioned Jesus, like you need guidance from Jesus or something like that and he — what was it?

STU: Yeah, you said — you were talking about Schwarzenegger and you were talking about the Republicans need to come back to their values and you said the Republicans and he became incredibly —

GLENN: Play it real quick.

GLENN: Two years ago that bothers me but I just want to know what the turning point in your life, what brought you to Jesus, Arnold? What changed you?

MATTHEWS: Well, you don’t have to make fun of that transition because it’s affected my life and probably yours, too.

GLENN: Absolutely it has. I’m a completely different man.

MATTHEWS: I don’t like that but I think you’re right about the main point you’re making.

STU: Listen to that. He is immediately offended by that. What has happened to this guy?

GLENN: Is there any more of that? Was he — was there any more of that? Didn’t he — wasn’t he either on my show or I was on his show? Because that’s from his TV show. Wasn’t there — didn’t he also, wasn’t he defending the Republicans like crazy?

DAN: Yes, Glenn, we have the whole — that was just a 30-second clip there but we have the whole interview. Yes, if you watched this interview, this is from 2004, it’s incredible. You wouldn’t believe this is MSNBC. He’s like Tim Russert-esque. You know, he’s hammering both sides. It’s a good solid interview.

GLENN: I want to know what happened. You know what? And you know I’m into pivot points. I mean, he just said it, it affected my life, it changed my life, and it’s obviously changed — oh, my gosh. Think of this. This wild conjecture here, I don’t want to judge anybody’s soul but I’ve got time to fill. So why not. You know, I’m into pivot points and when you say you’ve had a great change, the only way it’s sincere. There was an event that happened in your life. There was a moment where you went, oh, my gosh, I got it. That dream that’s in the book that’s ready, it was a dream for me but it changed my life. It is when I — it’s when I first got it, but it can go the other way, too. Here he is, play that audio again. Listen to this.

GLENN: Two years ago, that bothers me. But I just want to know what the turning point in your life, what brought you to Jesus, Arnold? What changed you?

MATTHEWS: Well, you don’t have to make fun of that transition because it’s affected my life and probably yours, too.

GLENN: Absolutely it has. I’m a completely different man.

GLENN: Okay, so here he is, you don’t have to make fun of that, blah, blah, blah. I really am offended by that. Okay, so he’s offended but now he’s saying we’ve gone through a Joan of Arc period. We haven’t gone through a Joan of Arc period. There’s all this stuff from the left. Nobody is persecuting anyone. No one — has there ever been a trial for anybody who didn’t have the right faith, has there been a God test in our government? Has there been a God test anywhere? There is none of it, none of it. Show me the evidence of it. So he’s either lying now, he has either changed because his pivot point is about money and success and he saw himself slipping away. This guy’s had sort of event, a negative event in his life and he’s given up on God or he’s had some sort of a shift in God. Do you know what I’m saying? Is this making sense to anybody? Do you know what I’m saying, Stu?

STU: Yeah, he’s lost faith in —

GLENN: Maybe it’s country, maybe it’s — who knows what it is. You don’t go from like, hey, hey, hey, it’s had a profound effect on my life. When you offhandedly say, “What was your come to Jesus moment.”

STU: Yeah, he was insulted that you would even say the word Jesus.

GLENN: And now what is his language again?

STU: Is this a commentary about theocracy and going to God for approval? We’ve been through that with President Bush who said he didn’t take advice from his father, he got it from another father, and we’ve been through this sort of Joan of Arc series.

GLENN: Stop, stop, stop, just that one phrase: He didn’t take advice from my dad, I take it from another father. If I were playing Chris Matthews — I’m sorry. If I had said that to Chris Matthews and I said, “I mean, what is that,” if I would have played Chris Matthews 2008 in an interview with Chris Matthews 2004, I would have said, “What, are you going to say I’ve taken advice from not my dad but I take it from another father,” Chris Matthews 2004 would have said to Chris Matthews 2008, “I don’t appreciate you making fun of that. It’s had a profound effect on my life. There’s no reason to make fun of that. I think it’s probably had a profound effect on your life.” So why is the change? What happened? Is it just about — boy, I tell you, guys, I’m telling you, darkness is gathering strength. The good news is the light is only getting brighter. The power of good is only getting stronger because it’s, a shadow has — it doesn’t exist on its own. It must have the light to create the shadow. So as the shadows become darker and stronger, more powerful, it’s only because the light has. But boy, I tell you we are in a battle of darkness and I wonder what Chris Matthews, wonder what’s happened to change him this much in four years.